In this episode, the guest is Dr. Adam Grant, a powerhouse in organizational psychology at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. With his wealth of expertise, he dives into the science and practical steps for boosting motivation, unlocking our full potential, and fostering flourishing individuals and groups. Dr. Grant, known for his bestselling books and captivating TED Talks, shares insights on overcoming procrastination, finding intrinsic motivation for even the most dreaded tasks, and challenging our assumptions. We explore cultivating a persistent growth mindset, delving into tools for enhancing creativity, and the intriguing connection between creativity and procrastination. The conversation also touches on effectively seeking and utilizing constructive feedback, improving focus with science-backed methods, and breaking free from negative thought spirals. Dr. Adam Grant sheds light on nurturing potential, addresses the pitfalls of perfectionism, and delivers over a dozen science-supported protocols. These practical strategies are applicable to anyone aspiring to lead a more productive, fulfilling, and creative life.
The discussion begins by exploring the reasons behind procrastination, with a focus on the guest's revelation that, despite being a "procrastinator" who finishes tasks early, there are certain administrative tasks he procrastinates on, driven by a strong aversion to boredom. The conversation challenges the misconception that procrastination is rooted in laziness, emphasizing that it often stems from avoiding negative emotions associated with a task, such as fear, anxiety, impostor syndrome, or confusion. The guest shares his personal struggles with procrastination, particularly in administrative areas, attributing it to a deep dislike for boredom. The conversation highlights that procrastination is not indicative of laziness but rather a mechanism to sidestep discomfort. The host, Andrew, then reflects on his own relationship with procrastination, viewing it more as a strategic approach driven by a love for deadlines. He sees procrastination as a tool to simulate the pressure that enhances his focus, making the preparation phase an integral part of the excitement before an event. The exchange challenges traditional perceptions of procrastination, portraying it as a diverse phenomenon with varying emotional triggers. It concludes with Andrew realizing that his approach is more of a strategic use of deadlines than chronic procrastination, offering a unique perspective on how individuals can leverage the pressure of impending tasks to optimize performance [1].
Figure 1. Spontaneous regional activity subserving procrastination [2].
1. Zhang, W., Wang, X., & Feng, T. (2016). Identifying the neural substrates of procrastination: A resting-state fMRI study. Scientific Reports, 6(1), 33203.
2. Kidd, C. and B.Y. Hayden, The Psychology and Neuroscience of Curiosity. Neuron, 2015. 88(3): p. 449-60.
Dr. Adam Grant initiated research on procrastination when a creative doctoral student approached him, claiming to have her best ideas during procrastination. Skeptical yet intrigued, they conducted a study in a Korean company, surveying individuals on procrastination frequency and having supervisors rate their creativity. The results showed an inverted U-shaped curve, indicating that moderate procrastination correlated with higher creativity. To experiment further, they designed a study where participants were tempted to procrastinate with entertaining YouTube videos. The findings revealed that those tempted moderately generated the most creative ideas. Dr. Grant explains the dynamics behind this relationship, highlighting that extreme procrastinators and non-procrastinators both face tunnel vision, hindering idea development. Moderate procrastinators, however, experience pressure that prompts them to work on active ideas in the back of their minds, fostering more novel concepts. He personally adopted this approach, diving into projects ahead of schedule but allowing ideas to incubate for a few weeks before committing. The conversation delves into the unconscious aspects of procrastination, considering scenarios where individuals are given assignments without detailed information. Dr. Grant emphasizes that intrinsic motivation is crucial for moderate procrastination to enhance creativity. If one is bored with the topic, they are less likely to engage in subconscious processing and make unexpected connections. In conclusion, the discussion touches on the critical role of interest in fueling creativity through procrastination and the potential biological mechanisms at play in connecting neural networks [3].
3. Liu, W., et al., Active procrastination and creative ideation: The mediating role of creative self-efficacy. Personality and Individual Differences, 2017. 119: p. 227-229.
The conversation shifts toward nurturing intrinsic motivation and exploring methods such as task design, reward systems, and persuasive self-talk. Dr. Adam Grant shares his perspective on the effectiveness of self-persuasion, referencing Elliot Aronson's research on cognitive dissonance. He discusses how telling someone else that a disliked task is interesting, even if paid only $1 for it, can lead to an increased liking for the task due to self-justification. The key lies in finding aspects of the task that genuinely interest oneself and explaining them to someone else, reinforcing the idea and building intrinsic motivation. The discussion touches on the concept of curiosity as a driver of intrinsic motivation. Dr. Grant suggests that framing tasks with a curiosity gap, where there is something one wants to know and does not know yet, can make any topic intriguing. He encourages students to find mysteries or puzzles within their least favorite subjects, emphasizing that curiosity, defined as the desire to find something out without attachment to a particular outcome, plays a crucial role in fostering intrinsic motivation [4].
Figure 2. Intrinsic Motivation Flow Chart [5].
4. Oudeyer, P.Y., J. Gottlieb, and M. Lopes, Chapter 11 - Intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and learning: Theory and applications in educational technologies, in Progress in Brain Research, B. Studer and S. Knecht, Editors. 2016, Elsevier. p. 257-284
5. Oudeyer, P. Y., Gottlieb, J., & Lopes, M. (2016). Intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and learning: Theory and applications in educational technologies. Progress in brain research, 229, 257-284.
Dr. Adam Grant delves into the effects of extrinsic rewards on motivation and performance. He highlights that while extrinsic incentives can boost productivity, they are more effective for motivating quantity than quality. Moreover, he discusses the potential undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation, emphasizing the importance of autonomy in how rewards are presented. Grant suggests that rewards, when framed as symbols of appreciation and value for specific behaviors, can positively influence motivation without overshadowing intrinsic enjoyment. The conversation also touches on the relationship between intrinsic motivation and performance, exploring how focus, persistence, and clarity of thought are enhanced when individuals are intrinsically motivated. The discussion briefly veers into the challenges of social media, with Grant sharing his experiences in navigating constructive criticism and the nuances of online engagement [6].
Figure 3. Intrinsic & Extrinsic Rewards in the Workplace Infographic [7].
6. Karayanni, M. and I. Nelken, Extrinsic rewards, intrinsic rewards, and non-optimal behavior. J Comput Neurosci, 2022. 50(2): p. 139-143.
7. (Practical Application: Intrinsic & Extrinsic Rewards in the Workplace Infographic, 2018)
Dr. Adam Grant and Andrew Huberman discuss the daily struggle between the desire to enjoy the world and the desire to improve it, a sentiment echoed by many. The conversation delves into the challenges of balancing priorities in a world inundated with distractions, particularly amplified by social media and smartphones. They explore the concept of "time confetti," where meaningful blocks of time are fragmented into small, interruptive moments, hindering both productivity and joy. Grant introduces the idea of protecting the first and last few hours of the day for deep work, suggesting a sequence that aligns with individual chronotypes. The conversation touches on the importance of blocking uninterrupted time and explores the potential benefits of structuring the day around natural rhythms for optimal performance [8].
8. Lack, L., et al., Chronotype differences in circadian rhythms of temperature, melatonin, and sleepiness as measured in a modified constant routine protocol. Nat Sci Sleep, 2009. 1: p. 1-8.
Dr. Adam Grant and Andrew Huberman discuss the intersection of creativity and circadian rhythms, delving into the impact of timing on creative thinking. Grant mentions recent studies suggesting that early birds may demonstrate more creative work in the morning due to increased energy levels, leading to enhanced divergent thinking. Huberman emphasizes the importance of Lial states, the transitional phases between sleep and wakefulness, where neural networks may engage in more unconstrained, creative thinking. The conversation explores the diverse creative processes of individuals, including deliberate stillness, free association, and the intriguing intersection of body and mind in fostering original ideas. Both hosts express a shared fascination with uncovering the nuances of creativity and potential individual differences in approaching this complex phenomenon [9].
9. Phan, T.X. and R.G. Malkani, Sleep and circadian rhythm disruption and stress intersect in Alzheimer's disease. Neurobiology of Stress, 2019. 10: p. 100133.
In this podcast conversation, Dr. Adam Grant and Andrew Huberman explore the dynamics of feedback, creativity, and the learning process. Grant shares his approach to creative work, involving the solicitation of feedback from a diverse group of individuals. He emphasizes the value of receiving multiple perspectives and critiques to refine ideas effectively. Huberman reflects on the idiosyncratic nature of opinions and recounts an experience highlighting the unpredictability of feedback. The discussion delves into the nuanced distinction between seeking feedback and asking for advice, with the latter framed as a means to receive forward-looking, actionable insights for improvement. The exchange underscores the importance of feedback quality over quantity, emphasizing the role of constructive coaching in personal and professional growth [10].
Figure 4. Feedback Tree [11].
10. Owens, M.T. and K.D. Tanner, Teaching as Brain Changing: Exploring Connections between Neuroscience and Innovative Teaching. CBE Life Sci Educ, 2017. 16(2).
11. flippengroup.com/4typesoffeedback/
Dr. Adam Grant shares a valuable technique for handling criticism called the "second score," learned from Sheila Keen. When receiving feedback, the initial critique is considered the first score. Grant suggests shifting focus to earning a perfect "10" for how well one accepts and processes the criticism. He narrates a personal story of facing harsh feedback from military professionals during a teaching session, emphasizing the need for humility and openness. Acknowledging the feedback, Grant adjusted his approach, embracing vulnerability and humor to create a more collaborative learning environment. The experience illustrates the transformative power of genuinely embracing and responding to criticism constructively [12].
12. Servaas, M.N., et al., The effect of criticism on functional brain connectivity and associations with neuroticism. PLoS One, 2013. 8(7): p. e69606.
In a discussion about the growth mindset, Dr. Adam Grant highlights the importance of considering the broader context in which it operates. While a growth mindset involves the belief in the malleability of skills, Dr. Grant emphasizes that its effectiveness is closely tied to the surrounding environment. Drawing on research by Justin Berg and Amy Resnis, he discusses interventions that not only teach individuals that their skills can improve but also instill a growth mindset about their jobs. This involves breaking down one's job into flexible components, allowing individuals to reshape their roles and find more fulfillment without compromising performance. Dr. Grant suggests that a pluralistic approach, considering both personal and contextual growth mindsets, can create a more impactful and sustainable culture of continuous development [13].
Figure 0.5 M.D.F.C. Innovation conceptual model of factors influencing innovation [14].
13. Ng, B., The Neuroscience of Growth Mindset and Intrinsic Motivation. Brain Sci, 2018. 8(2).
14. Hana Krskova, Yvonne A. Breyer, The influence of growth mindset, discipline, flow and creativity on innovation: Introducing the M.D.F.C. model of innovation.
In a discussion about intrinsic motivation and its potential downsides, Dr. Adam Grant explores the concept of a "Dark Side" of loving a task. Collaborating with G. Shin on a project, they investigated whether the passion for one task might lead to increased dislike for a subsequent, less enjoyable task. The findings suggested that excessive passion for one task could indeed result in reduced performance and increased aversion to a less interesting task. This insight prompted Dr. Grant to reconsider his approach to task sequencing, now opting for a warm-up with a moderately interesting task before tackling the more exciting ones. He shares an anecdote about a musician friend who, after performing to massive crowds, engages in menial tasks like cleaning up, possibly as a way to reset his frame of reference and make everyday life more manageable. This practice resonates with the idea of contrast effects and maintaining a balance between high-energy pursuits and the mundane aspects of life [13].
Figure 6. Motivational Framework for Understanding IS Use and Decision Performance [14].
Dr. Adam Grant explores the potential downside of extreme intrinsic motivation, suggesting that it may lead to a contrast effect where the enjoyment of one task makes other tasks seem less appealing in comparison. He highlights that it's the extreme passion for a task that might result in reduced performance on less interesting tasks. Reflecting on research findings, he indicates that moderate intrinsic motivation tends to provide a positive lift for other tasks. Dr. Grant discusses the challenge of segmenting negative experiences, drawing from emotion regulation research that emphasizes distraction and reframing as effective strategies. The idea of reframing involves focusing on improvement rather than absolute performance, exemplified by diving coach Eric's questions about making oneself and others better each day. These questions serve as a powerful reframing tool to shift the focus from perceived failure to incremental progress and positive contributions [15].
15. Garland, E.L., et al., Upward spirals of positive emotions counter downward spirals of negativity: insights from the broaden-and-build theory and affective neuroscience on the treatment of emotion dysfunctions and deficits in psychopathology. Clin Psychol Rev, 2010. 30(7): p. 849-64.
Dr. Adam Grant shares insights into his productivity habits, emphasizing the importance of having both a to-do and a to-do list. His to-do list includes avoiding scrolling on social media and refraining from picking up his phone after 9:00 PM. Maintaining a healthy boundary with phone usage, he limits it to posting or checking comments, preventing time-consuming rabbit holes. Dr. Grant keeps his lists in a Word document on his computer, where he finds the optimal environment for thinking and writing. He also advocates for handwritten note-taking, citing research suggesting better memory retention compared to typing. On a humorous note, he playfully suggests using blood as a last resort for note-taking, highlighting the importance of having a pen or pencil on hand [16].
16. VanGundy, A.B., BRAIN WRITING FOR NEW PRODUCT IDEAS: AN ALTERNATIVE TO BRAINSTORMING. Journal of Consumer Marketing, 1984. 1(2): p. 67-74.
Dr. Adam Grant highlights the pervasive "I'm not biased" bias, or the bias blind spot, where individuals believe they're more objective than others. He emphasizes the danger of this metabias, making people incapable of recognizing their own biases. Dr. Grant discusses the importance of acknowledging blind spots and introduces the reflected best self-portrait exercise, which involves collecting stories from people about times when an individual was at their best. This exercise reveals invisible strengths and helps individuals gain clarity on their abilities. He shares a personal example of reversing the exercise, writing stories to 100 people about when they were at their best, leading to a profoundly rewarding experience. Overall, Dr. Grant emphasizes the need for humility and continuous self-reflection in overcoming blind spots [17].
Figure 0.7 5 Ways To Minimize Blind Spot (18)
17. Pronin, E., D.Y. Lin, and L. Ross, The Bias Blind Spot: Perceptions of Bias in Self Versus Others. 2002. 28(3): p. 369-381.
18. www.simplimba.com/examples-of-blind-spot-bias-a/
14. 01:45:36 Helping Others, Synthesizing Information
He reflects on a pivotal moment after receiving tenure when a colleague invited him to co-author a book. Initially drawn to the idea of collaborating with someone already established in writing, his undergrad research lab vehemently encouraged him to write his own book, emphasizing the importance of sharing his ideas. Although initially resistant, as he perceived his strength in synthesizing existing ideas rather than generating entirely original insights, his students convinced him of the responsibility to share his decade-long research outside the classroom. This experience echoes his earlier realization of wanting to share something valuable he sees in others and extends that to a broader audience, illustrating the interconnectedness of his journey [19].
19. Ivanitskii, A.M., Information synthesis in key parts of the cerebral cortex as the basis of subjective experience. Neuroscience and Behavioral Physiology, 1997. 27(4): p. 414-426.
Dr. Adam Grant introduces the concept of mental modes—preacher, prosecutor, and politician—exploring how these modes influence our thinking. He highlights the adaptive nature of these modes in various roles but emphasizes their limitation in hindering self-questioning. Grant's personal inclination towards prosecutor mode, defined by his tendency to correct others, resonates with his quest to promote a scientific mindset. Thinking like a scientist, as exemplified by Tim Ferriss, involves humility, acknowledging what one does not know, and a relentless curiosity to seek new knowledge. Grant suggests that adopting a scientific mindset involves treating opinions as hypotheses, decisions as experiments, and remaining open to rethinking views based on evidence. He lauds Tim Ferriss for encouraging people to think scientifically about daily habits and behaviors, posing a broader question on how to foster scientific thinking, even in domains lacking direct access to scientific knowledge or journals [20].
20. Fink, A., et al., The creative brain: investigation of brain activity during creative problem solving by means of EEG and FMRI. Hum Brain Mapp, 2009. 30(3): p. 734-48.
Dr. Grant and Tim Ferriss delve into the psychology of confirmation bias, examining the neural circuits underpinning our affinity for affiliation and aversion to social exclusion. Grant identifies the evolutionary pressure that leads people to encase themselves in echo chambers, highlighting the challenge of fostering self-awareness regarding blind spots. He emphasizes the importance of a scientific mindset, where opinions are treated as hypotheses awaiting testing. Both Ferriss and Grant advocate for engaging with diverse perspectives on social media, with follows not necessarily indicating endorsements. They acknowledge the complexities of online interactions, where a single post can trigger unfollows, stressing the need for followers to recognize the broader foundation of evidence and rigorous thinking behind each post. The conversation underscores the value of nuanced engagement and continuous learning in a digital landscape [21].
21. Darnai, G., et al., Internet addiction and functional brain networks: task-related fMRI study. Scientific Reports, 2019. 9(1): p. 15777.
Dr. Adam Grant discusses the nuanced concept of authenticity, challenging the notion that authenticity should mean expressing every thought and feeling without boundaries. Grant argues that authenticity without empathy can be selfish, and being true to one's values is a more meaningful approach. He distinguishes between authenticity and sincerity, suggesting that sincerity involves aligning with the person one aspires to be and bringing the outside in. Grant encourages self-reflection on the consistency of actions with core principles, emphasizing that being authentic to certain facets of oneself may require being false to others. The discussion explores the idea that, instead of focusing solely on bringing the inside out, individuals should consider whether their actions align with the person they aim to become [22].
Figure 8. Proposed Conceptual Module [23].
22. Orange, D.M., There is no outside: Empathy and authenticity in psychoanalytic process. Psychoanalytic Psychology, 2002. 19(4): p. 686-700.
23. Lee G, Lin X, Choe Y, Li W. In the Eyes of the Beholder: The Effect of the Perceived Authenticity of Sanfang Qixiang in Fuzhou, China, among Locals and Domestic Tourists. Sustainability. 2021; 13(22):12353. https://doi.org/10.3390/su13221235
Dr. Grant reflects on the concept of potential and the tendency for individuals to underestimate their own potential, often judging themselves based on initial abilities. He highlights that the myth of raw talent as the primary driver of success is misleading, asserting that motivation and opportunity are more critical for growth. Drawing from his personal experience in competitive diving, Grant shares how a coach recognized his hidden potential despite lacking apparent skills, leading to a transformative journey. He emphasizes the importance of setting specific and challenging goals, exemplifying his focus on mastering the clean entry into the water. The broader lesson, as Grant sees it, is that accomplishments often stem from overcoming obstacles rather than relying solely on innate talent. Ultimately, he emphasizes the motivating force of progress over mere performance achievements [24].
24. Kim, S.I., Neuroscientific model of motivational process. Front Psychol, 2013. 4: p. 98.
The guest in this podcast identifies three character skills crucial for unlocking hidden potential and achieving unexpected growth: embracing discomfort, being a sponge for new information, and adopting imperfections. Grant illustrates the power of discomfort through his experience in competitive diving, where a coach saw potential beyond apparent skills. The imperfectionist mindset involves setting specific and challenging goals while calibrating standards of excellence, avoiding the pitfalls of extreme perfectionism associated with burnout and anxiety. Grant emphasizes the importance of recognizing when to aim for excellence and when to settle for good, aligning goals with the task's significance. The concept of being a sponge underscores the value of continuous learning and filtering information for relevance. Overall, these character skills can guide individuals toward realizing their hidden potential [25].
25. . Holden, C.L. and M.M. Jeanfreau, Are Perfectionistic Standards Associated with Burnout? Multidimensional Perfectionism and Compassion Experiences Among Professional MFTs. Contemp Fam Ther, 2023. 45(2): p. 207-217.
In addition, they delve into the complex relationship between early success and continued growth, highlighting both its motivational benefits and potential pitfalls. While early success can build confidence and momentum, Grant cautions against complacency and the dangers of competency traps. He emphasizes the need for a "failure budget," encouraging individuals to set goals that include acceptable failure zones, fostering a culture of experimentation and continuous learning. Grant shares his personal experience of starting a podcast as a risk-taking endeavor, challenging himself to embrace discomfort and imperfections. Ultimately, he advocates for a balance between early successes and ongoing challenges, rejecting the notion of "best practices" in favor of adaptable strategies that respond to an evolving world [26].
26. Cesanelli, L., et al., Transition from Youth categories to Elite cycling: relationships between early career performance and UCI World Tour success. J Sports Med Phys Fitness, 2022. 62(12): p. 1577-1583.
In this podcast they explore the possibility of a unique podcast format, drawing inspiration from professional wrestling's tag team matches. The idea involves debating fundamental issues with individuals who have opposing views, allowing others to "tag in" and challenge arguments, fostering a collaborative exploration of diverse perspectives. While acknowledging the potential controversy, Grant expresses interest in tackling topics such as policies for transgender athletes in sports. He envisions a platform where experts and stakeholders engage in nuanced discussions, embracing the complexity of the issues and aiming to propose thoughtful solutions. This experimental approach to podcasting reflects Grant's commitment to pushing boundaries and facilitating insightful conversations [26].
26. Markram, H., Seven challenges for neuroscience. Funct Neurol, 2013. 28(3): p. 145-51.
Dr. Adam Grant delves into the intriguing connection between creativity and the arts, drawing from a study on Nobel Prize-winning scientists that reveals their heightened engagement in artistic hobbies. Reflecting on the data, Grant highlights the notable prevalence of activities like playing musical instruments, drawing, painting, and even performing as magicians among these accomplished individuals. The conversation takes an unexpected turn to magic, as Grant discloses his past as a professional magician. He shares that the principles of misdirection and surprise integral to magic have informed his approach to science communication. Grant emphasizes the importance of challenging conventional wisdom and questioning assumptions to evoke a sense of intrigue rather than confrontation, aligning with the captivating surprises inherent in magic that foster delight rather than a feeling of being tricked [27].
27. Pressman, S.D., et al., Association of enjoyable leisure activities with psychological and physical well-being. Psychosom Med, 2009. 71(7): p. 725-32.
In a thought-provoking discussion, Dr. Adam Grant and his guest explore the nuanced factors that drive interest in content beyond the criteria of rigor, interest, clarity, and actionability. Drawing inspiration from sociologist Murray Davis, who asserted that ideas live because they are interesting, Grant underscores the role of surprise in capturing attention. However, he suggests that self-relevance, offering insights into human behavior or aiding self-reflection, is equally crucial. Grant shares examples, such as understanding narcissism as rooted in deep envy, that not only surprise but also provide a self-relevant lens, making information more relatable and engaging. The conversation touches on the human desire to better comprehend oneself and others, emphasizing that offering language to describe shared experiences fosters a sense of connection and reduces feelings of isolation [28].
28. Schmitz, T.W. and S.C. Johnson, Relevance to self: A brief review and framework of neural systems underlying appraisal. Neurosci Biobehav Rev, 2007. 31(4): p. 585-96.
The guest delves into the power of language in shaping emotions and facilitating self-reflection. Grant reflects on his New York Times article about "languishing," describing how naming an emotional state can aid individuals in processing and regulating their feelings. They explore the significance of providing a language for shared experiences, making abstract emotions more tangible. The conversation touches on the impact of cognitive neuroscience in helping people understand the neurological basis of their thoughts and emotions, fostering belief in the validity of their experiences. Grant emphasizes the value of self-relevance and the human desire to better comprehend oneself and others, highlighting how language and understanding contribute to a cognitive shift, reducing feelings of isolation and enhancing well-being [29].
Figure 0.9 Signs And Symptoms (29)
29. Lindquist, K.A., J.K. MacCormack, and H. Shablack, The role of language in emotion: predictions from psychological constructionism. 2015. 6.
In addition, they discuss his perspective on parenting and highlight a valuable lesson from his book, "Hidden Potential." He emphasizes the importance of making children feel that they matter by recognizing their ability to contribute and make a difference. Grant shares a personal story about seeking advice from his daughter, turning the parenting dynamic into a coaching approach. He introduces the "coach effect," referencing research that shows people gain motivation and confidence when they provide advice rather than just receiving it. This approach encourages children to develop problem-solving skills and boosts their self-efficacy. They reflect on the significance of reaching one's potential and the role of intrinsic motivations [30].
30. Yerys, B.E., et al., The fMRI success rate of children and adolescents: typical development, epilepsy, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and autism spectrum disorders. Hum Brain Mapp, 2009. 30(10): p. 3426-35.
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