Dr Andrew Huberman (American neuroscientist, Associate professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford University School of Medicine).
Rick Rubin (World-renowned music producer of numerous award-winning artists, including Johnny Cash, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, Adele, Eminem, Slayer, and many more)
In this podcast, Dr Andrew Huberman interview Rick Rubin, a globally renowned music producer credited with shaping the careers of iconic artists like Johnny Cash, Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Adele. Rick, also the host of the Tetragrammaton podcast and author of "The Creative Act: A Way of Being," shares practical insights on the creative process. He delves into his specific morning and daily routines, emphasizing the role of movement and the art of sourcing and capturing ideas. Addressing challenges like creative blocks and lack of motivation, Rick advises on interpreting dreams and achieving work-life balance. He highlights the importance of embracing uncertainty and cultivating relationships with the unknown, offering valuable insights applicable to all realms of art, work, and life. With a wealth of experience, Rick provides guidance on accessing one's artistic spirit and direction.
The individual shares their motivation for practicing a specific breathing technique to increase heart rate variability, emphasizing its positive impact on their results. They guide the listener through a five-minute session of the technique, encouraging closed eyes for optimal focus. The discussion touches on the observed changes in breathing patterns and the meditative quality of the exercise. The individual reveals a personal counting method during the practice and mentions aiming for 10 to 20 minutes daily for noticeable benefits in heart rate variability. The conversation explores the flexibility of incorporating the technique into the day based on the individual's circumstances and emphasizes its positive impact on mental states [1].
Figure 1. The Influence of Heart Rate Variability Biofeedback on Cardiac Regulation and Functional Brain Connectivity [1].
1. Schumann, A., et al., The Influence of Heart Rate Variability Biofeedback on Cardiac Regulation and Functional Brain Connectivity. 2021. 15.
The podcast describes a specific routine involving coherent breathing and air squats during a specific window of their day [2]. They share variations of the practice, including treading water, especially during a visit with Rick. Treading water becomes a shared activity, combining the enjoyment of podcasts, learning, and the outdoors. The conversation acknowledges the physical challenge of treading water and the quick adaptation observed. The individual expresses gratitude for the experience and the positive impact on their endurance, even incorporating treading water into their routine after returning home. The mention of podcasts, including Rick's Tetragrammaton [3] and the History of Rock Music, highlights the enjoyable and informative aspects of their routine. The exchange ends with a friendly invitation for a future visit.
2. Barnes, S.C., et al., Extremes of cerebral blood flow during hypercapnic squat-stand maneuvers. Physiol Rep, 2021. 9(19): p. e15021.
3. Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin. Available from: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Gat6FdyiG5ydUUHqPTAEQ.
The individual reflects on their meditation journey, starting with Transcendental Meditation (TM) learned at the age of 14. TM serves as a default setting, occasionally evolving into breathing exercises or metameditation. They describe the metameditation practice, involving phrases of loving kindness, gradually expanding from personal well-being to family, community, and eventually the planet. The practice, learned from Buddhist scholar Jack Kornfield, is shared with potential links for further exploration. The discussion then shifts to the impact of meditation on daily life. Despite not being a consistent daily practice, meditation has become ingrained over 45 years, shaping the individual's identity. They emphasize the continuous benefits, likening meditation to making deposits in a bank, with each session contributing to a foundation that positively influences reactions in the real world. The analogy of physical exercise highlights the transformative effects of meditation, likening it to a practice for life, enhancing sleep, mood, and overall well-being [4].
Figure 2. Meditation enhances attention, memory, mood, and emotional regulation in non-experienced meditators [4].
4. Basso, J.C., et al., Brief, daily meditation enhances attention, memory, mood, and emotional regulation in non-experienced meditators. Behavioural Brain Research, 2019. 356: p. 208-220.
During a beach walk with wired headphones, the individual was interrupted by a stranger intrigued by their podcast discussion on Steve Martin. The stranger, a dermatologist, shared his insomnia struggles and the irony of the conversation unfolded as the dermatologist, dressed in all black with sunglasses, received advice about the importance of sunlight for sleep. The dermatologist, defending his practice of avoiding the sun, questioned the individual's sun exposure habits. The individual, who spends hours in the sun daily, confidently displayed his healthy skin, challenging the dermatologist's beliefs. The conversation delved into the significance of morning and evening sunlight signals for circadian rhythms, highlighting the contrasts in blues and oranges. The individual emphasized the importance of bridging the gap between dermatology and neuroscience, suggesting a shift in the field's perspective. The exchange on the beach became a starting point for reevaluating traditional beliefs about sun exposure and its impact on health [5].
Figure 3. Timing is everything: Circadian rhythms and their role in the control of sleep [5].
5. Pandi-Perumal, S.R., et al., Timing is everything: Circadian rhythms and their role in the control of sleep. Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, 2022. 66: p. 100978.
The individual shares their decision to avoid Bluetooth headphones due to personal health concerns, citing experiences with lymph swellings behind their ears. Concerns about electromagnetic fields (EMFs) led them to opt for wired headphones, specifically air tube ones to minimize electric exposure near the head. The conversation touches on lifestyle choices for better sleep, such as keeping the phone out of the bedroom and turning off Wi-Fi at night [6].
Figure 4. A Transmissive Theory of Brain Function: Implications for Health, Disease, and Consciousness [6].
They express a shared perspective with the interviewer about the evolving landscape of health and wellness, highlighting the unfairly criticized nature of certain practices. The discussion delves into their natural living approach, emphasizing minimal processed foods, grass-fed animals, and limited use of products. The interviewer commends their physical transformation, prompting a revelation of a 135-pound weight loss achieved through a high-protein, low-calorie, low-carb diet, challenging conventional wisdom. The conversation concludes with agreement on the idea that different diets work for different people, advocating for healthy red meat from non-factory farmed sources [7].
Figure 5. Healthy food choices are happy food choices [7].
6. Rouleau, N. and N. Cimino, A Transmissive Theory of Brain Function: Implications for Health, Disease, and Consciousness. 2022. 3(3): p. 440-456.
7. Wahl, D.R., et al., Healthy food choices are happy food choices: Evidence from a real life sample using smartphone based assessments. Scientific Reports, 2017. 7(1): p. 17069.
The interviewer acknowledges the extensive stack of notes and addresses questions about AI's influence on art creation, to which the guest admits limited knowledge but emphasizes the importance of human perspective in art. Shifting to childhood activities, the guest shares a love for reading, playing guitar along with music, and practicing magic tricks, particularly mentalism. While no longer actively doing magic, the guest expresses admiration for mentalists, finding their ability to discern thoughts intriguing. The discussion touches on a recent experience with mentalist Asi Wind and the profound impact it had on the perception of reality. The guest appreciates the mysterious nature of mentalism and notes the mentalist's insight into manipulating and erasing memories. The conversation concludes with plans to bring the mentalist on the podcast.
Figure 6. Arts for Mental Health [8].
8. Bhui, K., et al., Creative arts and digitial interventions as potential tools in prevention and recovery from the mental health consequences of adverse childhood experiences. Nature Communications, 2022. 13(1): p. 7870.
The guest addresses the concept of creative blocks by identifying their roots in self-judgment or fear of external judgment. They advocate for creating art as a personal reflection without external expectations, emphasizing honesty and authenticity in the process. The absence of blocks comes from living in the present moment and acknowledging the constant flow of information available. The conversation shifts to the challenge of maintaining focus in a world of constant communication, with the guest recognizing their own tendency to reach out to others instead of immersing themselves in creative work. They connect this behavior to a fear of separation or abandonment, acknowledging the irrational anxiety that arises. The realization prompts gratitude for the supportive environment they are currently in. The guest then shares their perspective on deadlines, noting that they are more beneficial in the later stages of a project once the creative process has unfolded, allowing for the necessary freedom during the initial exploration phase [9].
9. Syharat, C.M., et al., Writing experiences of neurodiverse students in graduate STEM programs. 2023. 8.
Rick Rubin acknowledges his comfort with uncertainty and the unknown, though he admits to feeling anxiety at the start of new projects due to a desire for the outcome to be good. He distinguishes between the acceptance of uncertainty and the natural anxiety that accompanies the creative process. Regarding working with artists, Rubin emphasizes the importance of addressing challenges that interfere with the work, acknowledging that any hindrance is worth discussing. When asked about a quote from a previous podcast regarding artists using drugs to numb a painful existence, Rubin shares his personal sensitivity and the need for a protected, monk-like life to nurture his internal world. He reflects on his childhood spent mostly alone and the impact of certain voices on his well-being. Rubin acknowledges curating the people around him to create a supportive environment and minimize discomfort [10].
Figure 7. Tolerance of uncertainty: Conceptual analysis, integrative model, and implications for healthcare [11].
10. Henriksen, D., C. Richardson, and K. Shack, Mindfulness and creativity: Implications for thinking and learning. Think Skills Creat, 2020. 37: p. 100689.
11. Hillen, M.A., et al., Tolerance of uncertainty: Conceptual analysis, integrative model, and implications for healthcare. Social Science & Medicine, 2017. 180: p. 62-75.
The guest finds relaxation in the world of professional wrestling, seeing it as a collaborative and theatrical art form where the high-intensity performances are like a ballet with no real aggression. He appreciates wrestling's unpredictability, drawing parallels between the scripted nature of wrestling storylines and the uncertainty of the real world. He suggests that, much like in wrestling, people often present their own versions of reality, making it challenging to discern the truth. Wrestling, with its mix of entertainment and physicality, resonates with the primitive and evolved aspects of the human brain. In addition, he highlights the popularity of wrestling, akin to the increasing interest in UFC, as it satisfies both the primal need for physical combat and the evolved appreciation for theatrical storytelling. In a shift to a more personal discussion, he reflects on his own sensitivity and the importance of curating his surroundings to protect his internal world. This leads to a broader exploration of the unpredictability of the creative process and the anxiety associated with new projects. He shares insights into working with artists, emphasizing the necessity of addressing challenges that hinder the creative flow. The conversation delves into Rubin's experiences, childhood, and the impact of certain voices, providing a glimpse into his approach to nurturing his internal life. The discussion concludes with reflections on Johnny Cash, highlighting the legendary musician's soulful and humble nature, attributing his greatness to the authenticity of his storytelling rather than just musical prowess [12].
12. https://www.cashtribute.net/. Available from: https://www.cashtribute.net/.
The Guest emphasizes the importance of adopting a devotional practice and a diary-entry-like approach to creativity, free from preoccupation with outcomes. Drawing parallels with scientific inquiry, he underscores the value of discovering truth without fixating on predetermined results. The discussion extends beyond art to a broader philosophy of life, emphasizing the need to tap into oneself as a vessel for external influences. Also he advocates for openness, holding beliefs loosely, and allowing surprises, noting that a narrow belief system limits the available data for creative expression. Reflecting on the creative process, Rubin discusses the balance between being in a tunnel of focus and maintaining antennae for external inspiration. The conversation delves into the natural evolution of preferences, with Rubin sharing his shift from finding comfort in the energy of New York City to feeling most at ease in the tranquility of the jungle or forest. His willingness to update and adapt, coupled with a humble acknowledgment of knowing nothing, reflects a scientific and exploratory approach to life, where trying new things is driven by curiosity and the pursuit of well-being [13].
Figure 8. New thinking, management control, & instrumental rationality: Managing organizational creativity in pharmaceutical R&D [14].
13. Tromp, C., Creativity From Constraint Exploration and Exploitation. Psychol Rep, 2022: p. 332941221114421.
14. Sundgren, M., New thinking, management control, & instrumental rationality: Managing organizational creativity in pharmaceutical R&D. 2004.
In addition, Guest discusses his approach to handling finances in his work with artists, emphasizing his preference for staying out of the inner workings of negotiations and business aspects. He expresses a desire to focus on the creative process, making the beautiful thing in the moment, and tends to avoid involvement in matters unrelated to the art. A dinner conversation anecdote highlights Rubin's redirection from business talk to the discussion of art, emphasizing his prioritization of creative endeavors over financial considerations. The text transitions to a reflection on Rubin's visit, with gratitude expressed for his ability to communicate complex scientific ideas in an accessible and caring manner. The conversation ends with appreciation for Rubin's teaching style and the impact of disseminating health and science information to a broader audience [15].
15. He, W., et al., Gratitude Intervention Evokes Indebtedness: Moderated by Perceived Social Distance. 2022. 13.
This segment discusses the significance of dreams and the potential insights they offer into the subconscious. Drawing from the perspective of a mutual friend, Paul Kti, who considers the unconscious mind the supercomputer of the human brain, the guest emphasizes the role of dreams as a teaching tool tailored to individual learning styles. He shares personal experiences with dream journals, highlighting their retrospective clarity and the symbolic language employed by the unconscious. The conversation shifts to the story of comedian Andrew Dice Clay, illustrating how artists' underlying motivations, such as seeking approval, can affect their creative process. Rubin emphasizes the importance of authenticity in artistic expression, citing Clay's struggle when he tried to please those who did not appreciate his work. The text concludes with a brief mention of Ad-Rock encouraging Rubin to give LL Cool J a chance based on a demo tape [16].
Figure 9. Local Neuronal Synchronization in Frequent Nightmare Recallers and Healthy Controls [17].
16. Khodarahimi, S., Dreams In Jungian Psychology: The use of Dreams as an Instrument For Research, Diagnosis and Treatment of Social Phobia. Malays J Med Sci, 2009. 16(4): p. 42-9.
17. Marquis, L.-P., et al., Local Neuronal Synchronization in Frequent Nightmare Recallers and Healthy Controls: A Resting-State Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Study. 2021. 15.
The guest in this podcast shares concise yet profound advice for aspiring comedians: "Be true to yourself and don't listen to anyone." Acknowledging the potential brevity of such guidance, he humorously suggests a book that could be as simple as a blank space to be filled with personal insights. The conversation shifts to book writing, with Tim Ferriss seeking advice from Rubin. The key guidance is to focus on completing a draft rather than being bogged down in details, allowing for refinement afterward. Tim discusses his journaling practices, emphasizing entries ranging from one to eight handwritten pages, often capturing a mix of frustrations, positive experiences, and reflections on life cycles. Tim also mentions exploring expressive writing, a therapeutic technique pioneered by James Pennebaker, and teases an upcoming podcast episode on the subject [18].
Figure 10. Pediatric Language Networks [18].
18. Nath, A., et al., Determination of Differences in Seed-Based Resting State Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Language Networks in Pediatric Patients with Left- and Right-Lateralized Language: A Pilot Study. Journal of Epilepsy Research, 2020. 9.
The guest emphasizes a punk rock, do-it-yourself ethos when it comes to his work, seeing money as just another form of energy. Coming from a background where financial constraints never hindered creative execution, he prioritizes ideas and ingenuity over financial resources. In addition, he captures ideas in his phone notes and adopts a minimalist approach to execution, advocating for making things with whatever means are available. He shares examples from his experience and the world of filmmaking, highlighting that more money does not always translate to a better story. Tim Ferriss reflects on their shared background in punk rock and the skateboarding culture, acknowledging the power of starting small and minimalist to avoid distractions and focus on the essence of the creative process [19].
19. Tierney, S., et al., Broadening diversity through creative involvement to identify research priorities. Research Involvement and Engagement, 2021. 7(1): p. 3.
Rubin reflects on his diverse production experiences, emphasizing that he's faced skepticism with every new project, from rap to Slayer and Johnny Cash. He challenges judgments and trusts that if he likes something, others might too. Tim Ferriss praises Rubin's podcast, "Tetragrammaton," particularly highlighting the clever and captivating ad reads. Rubin explains the origin of the unique ad style, born out of his discomfort with traditional reads. He sees problem-solving and creative innovation as intertwined, where unexpected solutions not only address challenges but also become defining features. The ads on Tetragrammaton, initially a response to a necessity, have become a podcast highlight, showcasing Rubin's ability to turn constraints into creative opportunities [20].
20. Paredes, M.P.L., R.A. Bautista, and R.P. Dui, Advertising creativity: Its influence on media response states towards the Hierarchy of effects. Heliyon, 2023. 9(9): p. e19283.
The guest discusses his choice to abstain from alcohol and drugs, revealing that he only drank once as part of a class experiment. He attributes his lack of interest in substances to his individualistic nature, potentially influenced by being an only child. Despite being around these substances in the creative scene, he has never succumbed to peer pressure. Tim Ferriss explores the topic of psychedelics, and while Rubin expresses curiosity, he has not experimented yet. Ferriss shares insights into his experiences with MDMA and discusses psychedelics like psilocybin and ibogaine, emphasizing the importance of set and setting in these experiences [21].
Figure 11. The Subjective Effects of Psychedelics Are Necessary for Their Enduring Therapeutic Effects [22].
21. Teixeira, P.J., et al., Psychedelics and health behaviour change. J Psychopharmacol, 2022. 36(1): p. 12-19.
22. Yaden, D.B. and R.R. Griffiths, The Subjective Effects of Psychedelics Are Necessary for Their Enduring Therapeutic Effects. ACS Pharmacology & Translational Science, 2021. 4(2): p. 568-572.
In addition, he describes the early creative process as a free, playful, and potentially chaotic phase, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and improvisation. He acknowledges that this initial chaos eventually transforms into a more controlled and structured form, but values the unrestricted beginnings. Rubin reflects on working with the Ghetto Boys, noting their shift into horror rap, a genre that explored graphic and fantasy elements. When asked about the impact of shocking or disturbing content, the guest shares his preference for things that make him feel good, expressing a dislike for adrenaline and revealing that certain movies, like Lars von Trier's "Melancholia," have lingered and affected his mood for extended periods. This prompts a discussion on the lasting impact of films and how they can embed certain emotions in the viewer [23].
23. Liedgren, J., P.M.A. Desmet, and A. Gaggioli, Liminal design: A conceptual framework and three-step approach for developing technology that delivers transcendence and deeper experiences. 2023. 14.
The guest in this podcast expresses skepticism about trusting news sources and likens his approach to world affairs to viewing them as if they were wrestling storylines. He admits to not feeling well informed about current events and recounts an experience where false information about him was published by news outlets. This personal encounter with misinformation leads him to question the accuracy of news stories about others. In addition, he reflects on the playful, childlike perspective he aims to maintain, emphasizing the wonder and open-mindedness of childhood. He shares a story about luminescence in the water, highlighting how a scientific explanation, while adding depth for him, can diminish the magic for others, reinforcing his preference for embracing possibilities beyond rational explanations [24].
Figure 12. Embrace Uncertainty [25].
24. Does Skepticism Predict News Media Literacy: A Study on Turkish
Young Adults Available from: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1164096.pdf.
25. Embrace Uncertainty. Available from: https://fastercapital.com/keyword/embrace-uncertainty.html.
Rubin describes his morning routine, emphasizing a slow and deliberate start to the day. He begins with activities like sun exposure and beach walks, avoiding work-related tasks until later in the morning or afternoon. His peak work hours are from 1 p.m. to 6 p.m., after which he winds down to transition out of work mode. Rubin's evening wind-down involves red light exposure, wearing red glasses, and engaging in activities with his family to create a relaxed environment. He maintains this approach to light exposure, both natural and artificial, to improve sleep quality. Rubin touches on the significance of reducing blue light exposure, connecting it to changes in lighting technology and potentially contributing to health issues such as obesity and mental health concerns [26].
Figure 13. Timing of light exposure affects mood and brain circuits [26].
26. Bedrosian, T.A. and R.J. Nelson, Timing of light exposure affects mood and brain circuits. Translational Psychiatry, 2017. 7(1): p. e1017-e1017.
In this segment, the guest discusses the relationship between formal education and creativity, suggesting that the creative process benefits from a lack of formal constraints. He views the absence of a specific degree for creative endeavors as an enabling factor, allowing artists like the Ghetto Boys, Slayer, Public Enemy, Adele, and Eminem to flourish outside traditional educational structures. Rubin considers real-world experience, internships, and mentorships as more valuable for learning about one's interests than formal education. Transitioning to the personal realm, Rubin shares his perspective on relationships, emphasizing the importance of honesty and truthfulness. He sees relationships as a shared experience, asserting that without honesty, individuals exist in different worlds. Rubin advocates for openness in communication to foster genuine connections [27].
Figure 14. 21st Century Skills Assessment [27].
27. Thornhill-Miller, B., et al., Creativity, Critical Thinking, Communication, and Collaboration: Assessment, Certification, and Promotion of 21st Century Skills for the Future of Work and Education. 2023. 11(3): p. 54.
In addition, the guest recommends the book "Wherever You Go, There You Are" as his favorite on meditation, highlighting its impact on him during a challenging period in his adolescence. He appreciates the mountain visualization meditation from the book and expresses anticipation for the 30th-anniversary edition. The conversation shifts to the possibility of genetic or epigenetic influences in creative expression, citing examples like Johnny Cash or the Red Hot Chili Peppers. While acknowledging the potential for ancestral influences, Rubin emphasizes the mystery behind why individuals create and views various theories, such as UFOs controlling us, as possibilities, embracing the unknown aspects of human motivation [28].
28. Wherever You Go, There You Are. Available from: https://www.blinkist.com/en/books/wherever-you-go-there-you-are-en.
Rick Rubin approaches music with openness, focusing on the experience and the unexpected rather than rigid expectations. He acknowledges the mystical aspect of sensing the potential of a piece of music from its initial sound, drawing parallels to dating and the immediate feeling of whether the encounter will be interesting or not. Depending on his mood, Rubin may choose not to listen critically to music, emphasizing the importance of being present and receptive. In response to questions about the music production process, he notes that there is no fixed timeline for creating an album, with some projects coming together quickly over a weekend, while others evolve over years. Rubin compares the difference between swiftly produced works and those developed over time to the contrast between a daily diary and a journal spanning months, recognizing the unique qualities each approach brings to the creative process [29].
Figure 15. Induced Emotion-Based Music Recommendation through Reinforcement Learning [30].
29. Schiavio, A. and M. Benedek, Dimensions of Musical Creativity. 2020. 14.
30. De Prisco, R., et al., Induced Emotion-Based Music Recommendation through Reinforcement Learning. 2022. 12(21): p. 11209.
The guest discusses his approach to music videos, emphasizing that the decision to create one is solely based on the artist's preference. He highlights the distinct experiences between having a strong visual component paired with a song and allowing listeners to imagine the narrative solely through the auditory experience. Rubin acknowledges that both approaches have their merits, with videos enhancing certain songs and words alone inviting listeners to actively participate in creating mental images. In the context of his recent work, he mentions involvement in documentary projects and the upcoming releases of albums by artists like Marcus King and the band Gossip. Rubin shares his process of learning from documentaries by observing what he doesn't want to do, using the information to explore alternative and unconventional formats that reveal information in unique ways [31].
31. Borish, D., et al., Moving images, Moving Methods: Advancing Documentary Film for Qualitative Research. 2021. 20: p. 16094069211013646.
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